Laughing Squid - Latest Comments in Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

holidayhome — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:37:15 -0000

Wow - all this controversy because you are being pretty altruistic in helping out friends.

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

Danny Tuppeny — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 08:57:51 -0000

I wrote some articles about building my own context-link system that could send visitors to UK/US sites based on their IP address. It means I now longer have to look up nasty URLs as I'm writing my blog posts, and I have much more control than a hosted aStore!

http://blog.dantup.me.uk/20...

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

Chad — Wed, 16 May 2007 17:13:48 -0000

Because people state that they are smart enough to mae their own decisions makes it so? Laughable!

People are being duped into using Amazon and you realize it or not, you are aiding in thos Scott.

It's really too bad that soooooo many people are just voting on the side they think you would like them to be on, rather than truly understanding the issue on hand.

Very disappointing. The poll results show how easy it is to dupe the American public, even those that 'think' they are in the know.

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

pod p. — Wed, 16 May 2007 15:51:40 -0000

hey scott et al,

scott as u know i've tried to post more information in this thread re: amazon and the related corporate consolidation/partnerships dilemmas in general... i still don't know why it's not posting and will have to come back to this conversation cause b/c i am too busy preparing a show for tonight at New College about VIRTUAL MIGRATIONs ... u can read about it on my site linked above.

there's really some serious information you and the LS community should know and continue debating not just about amazon, but the environments thru which technology (via these type of companies) are shaping (or mangling?) our culture.

best,pod

ps. maybe its the links that are obstructing my posts so i will just add , if u search for :

princeton university campus greens amazon

you will begin to understand the underbelly.

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

Scott Beale — Tue, 15 May 2007 13:22:48 -0000

Hut: Where do you see that I say that Amazon.com is the only choice? In fact, I state just the opposite. Maybe you should read though the post and all the comments first before you insult the intelligence of our readers. They are not being tricked into using some big, bad evil company. They are smart enough to make their own choices and they have even said so in the comments.

This whole thing is getting really old.

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

Hut Landon — Tue, 15 May 2007 13:06:49 -0000

Your list of bookstores who offer online ordering is woefully lacking. In San Francisco alone, Books Inc., Stacey's, Book Passage, SFSU Bookstore, Borderlands, and The Booksmith (in addition to City Lights and Green Apple from your list) are among those that take online orders. Outside the city, Cody's, Kepler's, Bookshop Santa Cruz, Copperfields, and Diesel, A Bookstore are a few in the Bay Area that jump to mind.

Amazon is not the only game in town. If you want to support locally owned independent bookstores, and you want the convenience of online ordering, and you want to save shipping charges by picking the book up at a real store, there are many options, In this day and age, successful independents (and there are plenty) are adapting to change and to customer desires on a regular basis. Plus, they reinvest in their communities in ways that chains and online retailers don't.

Amazon may still be the first choice of many, but please don't leave people with the mistaken impression that it is basically the only choice.

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

David — Fri, 11 May 2007 12:35:18 -0000

Thanks for the information, Hut. Very informative.

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

Chad — Thu, 10 May 2007 17:01:16 -0000

Thomas - please read the entire thread, your referral questions will be answered. Probably more like them out there if you look around. That was the first one that came to my mind.

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

pod p. — Thu, 10 May 2007 15:15:52 -0000

hmmm Godwin's Law... interesting... but i think this conversation more invokes Philip K. Dick's exegesis: " The Empire never ended! "

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

Hut Landon — Thu, 10 May 2007 15:06:26 -0000

While I'm admittedly not an objective voice, since I work on behalf of independent booksellers and other locally owned businesses, I'd like to offer a couple of observations. First, one of our mottos is Shop Local First, which means we ask consumers to consider the locally owned alternative first, not exclusively. There are many reasons to support locally owned businesses, especailly if you live in our near a retail neighborhood that enhances your quality of life. But first and foremost, independent retailers actually give back to local economies far more than cahin and online busionesses do. There are studies that prove this (sfloma.org is one source), but think about it. Chain stores have to pay stockholders and fat executive salries; it makes sense that they would pull profits out of local communitites. Local businesses support other local busiensses -- from attorneys and accountants to sign makers and web designers.

Second, Amazon is certainly convenient, but so are the online presences of independents like Books Inc., Kepler's, Book Passage, The Boosmith...the list goes on. All of these stores offer online ordering and shipping to eitheer your home or office, or to the bookstore for pick-up. And guess what? Everyone uses the same publishers and distributors to order books from, so we get the books from the same places that Amazon does. You don't think Amazon has a big warehouse with every book in print, do you?

And while some authors may like Amazon's service, I can promise you that many others are not happy about Amazon's policy of offering used copies of their titles right next to the new copies. The used copy may make more money for Amazon, but it also cheat sthe author out a royalty, since royalties aren't paid on used books. Amazon also is known for trying to wrangle better discounts out of small publishers by threatening not to list their titles if they don't get a better deal than anyone else. Hey, that's capitalism, right? Actually, not right -- there are laws that say companies can't sell products at significantly different discounts to one supplier over another. So Amazon is soliciting deals that are probably illegal.They also purposely avoid collecting sales tax in California (also illegal, but that's another subject). That's a great deal for all you shoppers -- almost a 10% savings right off that bat. It has also cost the state literally hundreds of millions of dollars in lost revenue, so keep that $5 "savings" in mind when you pay more for city services, parking meters, public transportations, and the like.

With all that said, I'm not advocating you give up Amazon or chain store shopping. They serve a purpose and sometimes fill a need. What I am asking folks to consider is the local alternative as well, and hopefully first. As far as going into business with Amazon with your own store, you need to decide what's best for you. At least you now have some more information.

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

John Law — Thu, 10 May 2007 14:37:43 -0000

What a controversy! LS and Scott, as most of you posting here acknowledge has done more to promote starving, independent artists/writers/pranksters than just about anybody in the SF scene. He started in 94 by video tapping events that the Cacophony Society, Church of the Subgenius, the SF machine art underground and countless other desperately poor, brilliantly subversive groups were organizing throughout the 90's. He would then, give tapes (and all rights to use the footage) to those artists/criminals. This was his contribution, at that time, to the wonderful local scene that he wanted to be part of. If it weren't for those hundreds of free tapes, so many freaks would have no record of much of their early work because they were so taxed merely producing that they hadn't even thought about recording their event. This endeavor (like the soon to follow Squid List promoting all types of events on the web) was done gratis with no forethought of profit. Along the way, Scott realized a way to make himself independent from boring retail jobs by providing commercial webhosting to his ever widening group of friends and associates. He now makes a comfortably modest living doing that and still has time to promote (for free) all kinds of artistic endeavors of his fellows.

Personally, my two favorite types of stores are good tobacconists (with walk in humidors) and used bookstores. I patronize both as often as possible. Like most people in today's fast moving world, my leisure time for such luxuries as perusing rare books is limited. If I need a book, sometimes going on Amazon is the only way to find it. I love Powell's too and know it well. I have an old friend (a ruthless prankster, no less) who has toiled away in the labyrinthine stacks there for decades. If their book ordering program is as comprehensive, as convenient and as economical as Amazon's then perhaps using it would be an option.

On another note, comparing Amazon to Halliburton is another silly blow to civillity that online communication seems to encourage. They are part of an inexorable lunge into an unseen future that we can't know til we're in it. They're not Nazis and with the prices they often provide to book buyers, they must be a godsend to some low-income, remotely located readers.

Times change. For me, the loss of the nearly twenty-five reperatory movie houses that adorned Market St., Mission St, and Frisco's varied neighborhoods in the 70's and 80's was a deeply sad blow. I almost lived in some of those magical dark rooms: the Richelieu Theater on Geary played only B&W Noir films, The York on 24th St.- triple bills of Hitchcock, Polanski and others, The El Rey on Ocean - now a giant evangelical church & my favorite: The Embassy on Market, next door to the equally wonderful Strand Theater. The Embassy opened at ten in the morning and for $1 you could stay til past midnight. Many people did. You were handed 4 lottery type tickets along with your entrance ticket -these you hung onto til later. Their programming was the best. It was by title and assumed genre. That or it was completely random. A typical bill would be "Snake Fist Fighter" (early Jackie Chan) with "Bring me the Head of Alfredo Garcia" and "Love Story!" I would sit in the balcony smoking cigars and watching the amazing bills along with a big contingent of the cities unseen shopping cart populace. At 8PM they'd bring out the big wheel onstage and spin it, a few lucky wino's would win $2-20 or so bucks. I won $4 dollars once. It was fabulous.
My point? All those wonderful places are gone due to changes in technology. It's a shame, but inevitable.

Some independent bookstores (mostly in large metropolitan areas & college towns) will survive with the support of those who of us who need them. The overhead for operating such a business is considerably less than running a decrepit old theater with reperatory fare. I love these places: Borderland's on Valencia is my favorite; Green Apple, Dog Eared, Black Oak, the remaining Cody's, Shakespeare, etc. Patronize them all. In the mean time, if promoting books by Hal Robins, Charles Gatewood, Re/Search etc, on Amazon exposes these writers and publishers to worlds of new readers, them it can't be entirely a bad thing.

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

Thomas Hawk — Thu, 10 May 2007 14:14:08 -0000

Chad, and what is Powell's doing in return for people like Scott and I and others who choose to promote artists online? Are they paying Scott a referral fee? Are they paying me a referral fee? Are they in any way supporting the online efforts that might suggest them as an option? Is it that local small blogs and websites are not important enough for them or is it that they'd prefer to keep all of the profit themselves.

And what about things that are not sold at Powells? Is it up to the blogger to try to create a hodgepodge of places to build a store that won't pay him referral fees?

I have no problem with Powells, but if they want to build the infrastructure for an online store with referral fees then I'm sure they'd be considered.

Trust me on this one, if more of us drive business to the local bookstores instead of amazon, we can hold onto the few we have left even longer!

And if the local bookstore can build a competitive referral program for people like Scott and other small community bloggers then we can also hold onto the few samll internet site operators we have even longer. But to expect Scott to refer this traffic and that there is no responsibility for the small independent stores to in turn support his operation is not right.

Amazon built a product that works, that pays a fair referral fee, that is comprehensive and complete and offers the small blogger or site a way to help sustain their long term viability. When something else is more compelling let me know.

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

Chad — Thu, 10 May 2007 13:50:10 -0000

Yeah, maybe Amazon is dumping a large % of their profit back into local business? Who knows? Maybe they are the ones rescuing all the kittens in Guyana? Maybe Jesus works for them? Who knows?

PPPPPPPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

Simone Davalos — Thu, 10 May 2007 13:28:51 -0000

My point, my dear co-debater Chad, is that who knows how many other good causes exist that Amazon supports that we don't know about 'cos they do it quietly? Conversely, it is true that Amazon may very well be funding kitten-torture rings in Guyana, we don't know. We need to make careful choices, but no choice is completely without fault or benefit. Ah well. As the great sage Harry Nilsson said, We hear what we want to hear, and we see what we want to see.

I agree with everything D.S. Black said, only in a slightly less elegant format. As Mr. Black has invoked Godwin's Law I hereby declare myself out of this discussion.

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

David — Thu, 10 May 2007 13:15:39 -0000

Re Dylan...sad but maybe true about the 'strong incentive' I would think that this http://sfloma.org/whylocal would be incentive enough. At the same time, if this microcosm debate/vote follows the general public view, then maybe you are right. There are definitely ways to go about this...Amory Lovins and the RMI have good examples of how this works.

Re Simone...would love to hear from Stewart Brand on this.

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

Chad — Thu, 10 May 2007 13:04:07 -0000

Thomas Hawk - Unless you are dealing with easily confused folks that somehow read Amazon pages better than others, I recommend you link them to www.powells.com as previously mentioned. Only one link as you prefer as well. Troy's book awaits! Oh, and no one has maligned Scott, just shared some info with him that I greatly appreciate him incorporating into the site. I wish the amazon store would go away and a few 'local' store links could be placed up, but it's a great start! Also, be sure to check out other local sites like www.fecalface.com. They are massive supporters of SF underground culture!

I also think you are probably correct that local bookstores clear more money than Scott does on his amazon store. Was that in question here? If they didn't, they likely would be closed. Trust me on this one, if more of us drive business to the local bookstores instead of amazon, we can hold onto the few we have left even longer!

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

D.S. Black — Thu, 10 May 2007 12:07:23 -0000

As Joker rhetorically asks Batman, before punching him: "Have you ever danced with the devil by the pale moonlight?"

This fractious and even Jacobin discussion has I think unfairly maligned Scott and his business for offering convenient one-stop shopping using a consolidator (Amazon) as middleman.

Conscientious and principled shoppers can still order direct, and may be provided links with which to do so. Purists retort that any traffic through Amazon is at the expense of local business...and that certainly is true.

BUYERS BEWARE for your consumer choices do have consequences. How many shoppers are able to face, unflinching, the Naked Lunch that is at the end of their money-fork? Too few! Is it LS's job to compel them to make the "right" choice? Obviously that is in part what this debate is about.

If sales that otherwise would not occur are effected via the Amzaon virtual storefront, then I don't see why Scott should be faulted for offering it. If a better mousetrap is built by someone who is demonstrably more in or of this community, then I trust they will get fair consideration for their service.

As a meme-scholar, this exchange has enlightened me on one point: Halliburton has become the new Hitler variant in Godwin's Law. (Anyone care to update the entry in Wikipedia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wik... )

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

Dylan Tweney — Thu, 10 May 2007 10:04:52 -0000

Scott, I like the discussion here and I think you've done the "radical locals" one better by actually listing a bunch of local sources alongside your Amazon store. It's a reasonable and workable solution.

One argument for buying local that nobody's made yet here is that locally produced goods have a lower carbon impact. It would be great if we could find ways to make our economy more local, as this would lower carbon emissions. I'm in favor of that.

But I'm a realist too. It would also be great if http://sfloma.org/ had an affiliate program so that people who send business to local merchants, like Scott, could get a commission for that. All the bellyaching about why we *should* buy locally will go nowhere if there's not a strong incentive for people to do it.

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

pod p. — Thu, 10 May 2007 05:14:21 -0000

Dear Scott et al,

1st off , respex, clearly u are one of the hardest working webbers in the info/showbiz...Thanks for taking the xtra steps towards supporting independent authors, bookstores , distributors, publishers, etc.... I hope that direction will remain a central concern for LS community and those local links might be presented and utilized as a first option ...and Obligation to diversity.

I haven't jumped into a blog thread here before, but this one really triggered some deep concerns which honestly have been building up regarding what appears to be a substantial drift from the underground to more and more popular (and highly problematic ) culture.

This debate here represents something even more disturbing than what i suspected. It is not your coverage of the arts that has changed as much as an artist community as a whole that is apparently losing its WILL to operate outside the norm... to operate on its own territory...to defy these intolerable system grids wherever possible... to demand the iMpossible , to speak up for the impossible, to enlarge the hunger for impossibles to the point that it obscures the narrow and demeaning supermarket aisles that have been layed out before us by clerks and thieves and colonial empire pricks.

In the end it is not offensive that LS uses a tool which supports the authors in these circles... but that "counterculture" authors themselves are not only ready to belly up to the Man without even a squirm or a wince, amazingly they do not even seem to have any recognition of their virtual nemesis pimp - Amazon.com, who pioneered e-commerce in the shape of some odd new virtual Reagan/Bushonomic pustules and wet dreams that either ensures a deforestation of local/indie community-driven economies or leeches off them with their little idiotic click-on shopping carts.

And still worse i've just noticed that one of THE major hubs of supposedly subculture artists in n. america has been reduced to debating issues regarding the finer (and gruesome) details of CONVENIENT ONLINE SHOPPING...

this is the effect of Amazon.com ...

Get me the fuck outta here before Jeff Bezos's wall street e-zombie ass starts gnawing at my flesh!

with love... and wake the fuk up yall !
pod p.

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

Dario Salvelli — Thu, 10 May 2007 05:04:29 -0000

I like that u try to promote indipendent publishing: is this the better way?
Why do u use aStore ? Wny is easy to setulp and highly configurable?

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

Thomas Hawk — Wed, 09 May 2007 23:54:11 -0000

Scott Beale has done more to support the San Francisco underground arts community online than anyone. He supports local artists and promotes them. Has been doing so for years. Fact of the matter is that it costs money to publish a website like this not to mention put in the hours and hours and hours of work that Scott has for years to support the community.

Trust me, all of these so called "local" independent bookstores clear far, far, more cash than Scott does on his blog.

I find it offensive that naysayers would pop out of the woodwork to try to malign Scott over his online store. Personally I think it's a damn good idea. And I think it's a great resource for Scott to help give even more support to the artists that he supports and recommends. I like this idea so much that I might even build a store myself after reading this.

Amazon offers an easy central place with an amazing breadth of product to build a store like this. If independent bookstores want to get together and build something like this themselves then more power to them and I'm sure Scott would consider it if it was comparable to Amazon. But just because Amazon is "online" and not a local bookstore doesn't make them evil.

I support local artists whenever I can. I bought Troy Paiva's excellent book "Lost America" at his photo opening last Friday night in Alameda. I like buying things directly from artists when I know the money is going directly into their pocket. But you know what? When I blogged about his show I put a link in there to his book on Amazon.com (just like he does on his website) because it's an easy way for more people to discover his work, buy his book, and support him in the end. If I didn't link to Amazon many people might be too lazy to get down and try to search for it at 10 local bookstores none of which probably carry it.

Ain't nothing wrong with what Scott's doing here.

Power to the people, power to the artists, and keep on doing that thing you do Scott Beale.

Thomas Hawk

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

RU Sirius — Wed, 09 May 2007 23:24:50 -0000

I'm happy to see my book included here since the current one is not getting the greatest distribution. We writers need all the outlets we can getâ€¦

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

Chad — Wed, 09 May 2007 22:57:13 -0000

Simone - Make sure that you never go to Vegas with Lori from above. You've both lost every one of your 'bets' so far! I have a difficult time even following the thin thread of a point you are trying to stich together. Your point is that Amazon gives money to Long Now, which in turn is then able to anchor other green business in it's proximity? Whew, have you been speech writing for this administration? Those type of correlations sound familiar!

I haven't felt the need to research all the local websites for you. Maybe you should take a few moments to research them for yourself if you genuinely care.

Everyone else needs to realize I'm not trying to demonize amazon. I agree the comparison to halliburton was way over the top, not sure who made that point. What I hope folks gather from this is the fact that we need to spend more of our money locally when possible. No, chocolate is not local Simone (I personally don't eat the stuff), but when purchasing chocoalate everyone has the decision of what chocolate to purchase and from where. Free trade, organic chocolate makes a difference in local communities, rather than buying Nestle.

Companies like amazon have caused the closure of many a local business. Amazon makes these shiny little links and brings forth reasons why they are good. Scott has built up what seems to be a solid reputation in these parts and when he brings ideas like this up, people trust him. I hope the vote that I see above (currently 50-10 in favor of amazon links on ls) is not the only factor Scott uses to make his decision as I think many of the yes votes must have been more to back Scott than they were yes votes in support of this amazon store link.

Scott, please look into an amazon alternative. There are other choices out there that can bring in revenue if necessay. It is a multitude of decisions like this one that add up to keep local stores like Green Apple viable or closed.

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

David — Wed, 09 May 2007 19:48:53 -0000

This is terrific...swap out SF for your city/town:
http://sfloma.org/whylocal
A good summary

Re: Amazon Associates aStore, Build Your Own Amazon.com

David — Wed, 09 May 2007 19:32:16 -0000

Interesting...All the authors are fine with the Amazon thing. What a surprise!

Ask these bookstore owners if they feel the same way:
http://www.nciba.com/
Hal or Violet, what about the their rent or their worker's rent?

Bleu's comment: "while there are local spots in the city where I might be able to buy these books, there isnâ€™t anywhere in my immediate neighborhood." is the crux of the problem...our society has become so focused on the quick fix (the internet being the quickest). Honestly, do we buy books daily like coffee? No. Seems like the huge trek out of your Chicago neighborhood would be every so often. With the advent of internet, Starbucks on every corner, etc.. it's getting tougher for local indie business to stay afloat. Especially when corporations offer big incentives that the locals are unable to.

Here's info on an interesting alliance, BALLE:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...
I wonder what their thoughts are on this? (I'm not a member and have no affiliation)
Would they support Amazon kicking back 10% over trekking a mile or 2 to the local bookstore?