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RIP..Cody's SF, Clean Well Lit, Acorn, the other used Polk St bookstore going out of biz.
Just a warning about Listmania, it seems that many of these are just spam so itmay be best not to include them in your store until amazon sort out the issue!
Can I also plug my new astore tutorial website and try to get some feedback?
It is currently under construction, though I have set up the basics on creating an aStore with screenshots, and example of various widgets available which lend themselves to inserting in blogs superbly!
Build Your Own aStore Tutorial
Feedback can be left on my blog Here
I am very familiar with the Squid List and everything wonderful LS does (and has done) for the community (SF and at large).
At the same time, I don't believe any LOCAL bookstore or business would appreciate their patrons routed to a larger corporation because of kickbacks (90% still goes to Amazon). While LS has a stellar background in supporting local business, this article and your retort seems to run against your Co-Conspirators philosophies (and maybe LS's too).
Also, what about the people who wrote these books? You seem to be concerned about the whole LOCAL thing, but not about promoting these authors works. By the way, it's not necessary to capitalize LOCAL each time you write it, unless it is your intention to SHOUT at everyone.
In regard to the local issue - from what I can tell, many of those listed in LS's store are local - Violet Blue, Barb Traub, Harry Robbins, RE/search, etc. Scott has proven over the years that his main intention is to support local artists and this is a great way to promote their work and have it accessible to everyone.
I bet Green Apple would be happy to work something out with you along the same lines. If not some other local bookseller where the money would stay local. Doesn't have to be located in SF.
Think about it.
Since, we're playing guessing games, my guess is that Lori tows the LS line whenever possible, without consideration of the actual matter on hand.
I'm politely making suggestions here Lori. If Scott needs help setting something like this up, I'd be glad to be of assistance.
Signing up with Amazon is not the best choice. That is obvious. Sometime there are better options out there that need to be brought to light. That is what's taking place right now.
Another great local bookseller to consider linking to is Powells in Portland.
Either way, I'm glad to see Violet's books on the list. She has some great anthologies.
traffic to my Amazon affiliate store.
I have nearly 20 books to my name, and when all is said and done I
make the equivalent of one dollar a book with my royalties. those
royalties, because of print quarterly payout, come in a check six
months after the book is actually purchased. with my Amazon affiliate,
I make another dollar to dollar-fifty on each book -- effectively
doubling my royalties, and at Amazon, paid out monthly.
my local publisher has not given me the best deal with my contracts
and payments, to put it lightly, but opportunities are opportunities
-- and they have refused to give me electronic rights of any kind
across the board for royalties on my own work. we have parted ways.
making a little extra with my Amazon program makes me feel a little
better. as it should for all of us -- like Scott -- who want to have
an easy way for our readers to access books we love and get them all
in one spot while *supporting us* the people blogging and making our
sites ourselves. *that* is supporting local business; knowing that
Scott built Laughing Squid with a community he tirelessly supports out
of the pockets of individuals -- order a book, you give me a buck and
Scott a little scratch too, which helps to ease the strain on all of
us, even if just a tiny bit.
I am deep in debt, and to be honest, just barely made rent last month.
I make my own choices based on my ethics -- I could have crazy porn ad
revenue, but I would never ever do that. on my site, instead, I
recommend sex-positive education books and titillating erotica that
degrades no one (and supports my community of writers). my blog is a
labor of love. but I make about $300 a month off Amazon, and it helps
me do what I do.
Maybe setup deals with the local stores? But they might not carry all the stuff?
Plus, you can shop at Amazon but buy local. That's up to you.
Glad to hear Amazon is working out so nicely for Violet.
Should we all say "yes" when corporations put money in front of our face?
But..Halliburton supports Houston folks; Bechtel supports San Francisco folks, too. I believe there is a larger picture than your rent, though (sad to say). And I believe most local businesses would tend to agree.
I guess it all comes down to scruples.
I think most folks just jump at Amazon without knowing some of the other options available.
Unfortunately, amazon.com has virtually driven Books In Print (RR Bowker) out of business -- if people want to see if a book "exists" they go to amazon. So if you're not listed in amazon's site, people think you no longer exist.
I personally think that if people still want, say, RE/Search books to continue to exist, they should send us their orders direct -- instead of saving a few bucks by ordering from amazon. But people will do what they do. Only the elect will order direct from us -- www.researchpubs.com -- but they should know they are directly helping us survive, in an era of near-complete global corporate takeover of all of our local cultural creativity. -- v. vale, founder of RE/Search & Search & Destroy in 1977, san francisco
Why aren't you guys using a local ISP or web host for your email services? I have some recommendation if you need some to stay LOCAL.
Also I love it when the Halliburton references come out for no reason.
I am glad to see this debate happening at your site, and I am well aware of all your community consciousness and cred! But I must mention that i too am utterly shocked that you would plug Amazon.com on your site. It is a disaster for local biz /bookstores. One of my mission favorites is Modern Times ( http://www.mtbs.com ) and will never ORDER a book from anyone except in the case of trying to support a publisher directly like Vale has mentioned. This is not one of those scenarios that is an acceptable convenience or inevitable change or some new technology that will make things better or cooler... it's another fucking giant/parasite that will suck our livelihoods out from under us and suck the life outta our hood...
deals, schmiels, i don;t know all the distro details here, but if Violet wants to sign with the devilfucks that's her biz... but please don't try to pass it off as HIP!
Bookstores are an endangered resource and if u think it's hurting ppl here in the bay, well it has created a desert in middle america filled with Borders and Starbucks, and sadly ppl have actually begun to think that tHis is book and cafe culture.
don;t have a solution to the accesibilty question, but this is a critical scenario to keep an eye out for Alternatives !!!
This goes back to my whole policy on my blog - it's my blog. This is your blog, and if you want to help out your friends, etc with an Amazon affiliate program, that is your right.
I do love the Powell's reference (they have a great ad in the New Yorker) - it's all good to have an affiliate on your site, it just cannot be Amazon.
And just for the record, of course I support local businesses, including coffee (Ritual Coffee Roasters & Bluebottle Coffee). I think independent is a better word than local in this situation. Every day Laughing Squid has thousands of visitors from all over the country and world and I think that people are quite capable of making their own decisions on how and where they want to purchase stuff. Those decisions can be based on many things including location, convenience, politics, technology and so on. As Devo says, "Freedom of choice. is what you got".
/been hearing that all week myself, thought I'd share the love
// I was told there'd be pie and punch where's the pie and punch
We all make choices and none of us can be as morally pure as we would like. Ultimately it comes down to intentions. And since Scott has done more for local culture in the Bay Area than any 10 people, I'm inclined to believe he thought long and hard about think, made a thoughtful decision and as such, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
Local bookstores are being killed by Amazon, and small publishers too. I also think it's very un-HIP to ask people what they think, then nark out their email ISPs (yahoo, hotmail) because you think they are personally attacking you. Please respect peoples' desires for anonymity.
Please don't take any of this as a personal attack, and I appreciate this forum for discussion while it lasts. (How long until LS turns off comments completely?)
I don't use my local free internet provider to announce a business model which will sap money from local business. And regarding your 'anonymous' jab, my business has nothing to do with my opinion, which happens to be a local non-profit.
I'm at work and have no say about the ISP. would love to hear about local ISP's to pass along...you have my email.
I buy my music at Amoeba or other used/new local record shops.
The Halliburton comment is relevant. It's an analogy.
Re Kevin:
I shop locally at the Ferry Bldg on Saturday and if I do hit Rainbow I make sure to always choose local produce/products, unless it's not organic than I go for California.
***I am in no disagreement as to the good Scott/LS has done for the community*** That's not the issue. I have trouble with this new business model and Amazon's intentions.
Shop independent/local and if need be independent.
I love the SF local bookstores, so if they want to sell more of such titles, they should put them in the damn windows or something.
Sounds like Scott is simply being parsimonious. Connecting his website with the books that influence him is a public service. aStores is a simple way to get this done fast.
I haven't heard about Amazon using slave labor in the third world to manufacture its products, or their use of synthetics and petroleum by-products in contradiction to their "brand promise". If and when Amazon's ethics level drops to the level of M&M/Mars or the Body Shop, I'll lead the damn boycott. Right now I live in the heart of North Carolina and Amazon.com is a bloody lifeline.
I also like the Powell's affiliate program, in case you're thinking of dropping Amazon... I wonder if we could get AK Press to set something up, if we just offered some free coding to them...
- Srini
...think I'll set one up myself this week...
-s
sorry to take the antagonistic tact here, i know it can be a pain in the ass when you are already pouring a massive amount of energy and dedication into the arts/culture, and then leave yurself open to "the mob" to take shots from all directions... to your credit i can see you are making as much effort to assess your community's views... and so perhaps this is a message in the vein of "friends don't let friends drive drunk" ...
so first to answer yur questions: Yes itunes and netflix ALIGNMENT would be AS odious... USING it is another matter. obviously some of these things are becoming unavoidable... in fact the industry strategies devise them that way. that is the problem : they often have enough power to construct the atrocious consumer map.
(Btw, NO, i support open mind, amoeba, aquarius, and artists who sell their work directly while on tour... and generally have an aversion to watching films at home, but lost weekend on those rare occassions )
i have been spending the last couple years analysing the info wars, ( in a fairly dilletante manner i must admit because otherwise it would just become too depressing ) and have been trying to put the info back into arts and theater and a playground with enough room for a miltant jungle gym section of the park... and sure there's many comrades here on squid !
so Yes while a jammer or a hacker might USE netflix to access or copy important information and/or juicy fun, s/he does not endorse the conglomerate fucker who exterminates the flora of our local cinemas ( ata, roxie, red vic, etc.) that little remanant of public space where we can still manage to get out of the cubicles and cages to socialize and meet up with new and old friends ... and escape the consumer grids.
...
so, if you have already gone down the path of amazon and it makes sense for local artists that u wish to support, well ok , u must decide , but please don't miseducate the public that this path is a desirable one...( well, maybe it is, but u'd have to be more convincing... and know that the info giants have complex repercussions ) it's now quite important about how you frame it toyour public.
OR if yur ready to put the gloves on ( and we know u can't wear them in every scenario)... you will decide to drop em and look for greener fields for the wider spectrum of the info flows and the hood.
( sorry if caps are shouting , i use them as easier emphasis/ italics)
Jeremy Pepper - Yes, Scott is being altruistic in the sense he helping friends out, no doubt. Sometimes though, we don't have all the information available to us to make a proper decision and hopefully once we do, we can change course and "right the ship". Also, this is Scotts deal and I think it's pretty great that we can all chat like this and hear each others voice. If Scott didn't want that, he wouldn't allow anyone to post. Thank-you Scott for providing this forum.
Kevin Smokler - Heck yes I buy my food local! Too much tasty grub in the bay area not to!
Srini - I wonder what other links to sites like Powells exist? That was only the first one that came to mind.
I'd just like to give a shout out to my favorite DVD rent-by-mail service, GreenCine. Similar service and selection to Netflix with a greater emphasis on docs, independents, international and even porn. Local AND independent, Greencine donates a portion of their revenues to non-profit film arts organizations.
At the real risk of revealing myself as an absolute ignoramus in these matters, in addition to general and sincere thanks for your help in creating publicity for my books, I'd like to say that since Lauyghing Squid's reach and effect is not merely local, I don't really see any harm in the long run on its being yoked with amazon.com in making my books, or other people's books available.
Of course, I am not a self-publisher. Still, the publisher of my books has recently suffered from chicanery at high executive levels in the publishing world, financial convulsions (execs literally stole the money) which have also negatively affected many local Bay Area publishers (REsearch Publications, I believe, is one), the result being that though my last book has sold well, to date I haven't received a penny of royalties. But I feel it's in my primary interest to get the book into the hands of as many people as possible, both for selfish reasons (to "prime the pump" and get the revenue stream started at last) and for those related to the less obvious, aesthetic purposes of writing and publishing for others.
Here we're fortunate to live in a cosmopolitan area with independent bookstores, but as srini points out, in much of the country ordering books online is the only way to get anything out of the ordinary.
Recently, I've been able to locate and order online a number of rare scientific and art books which I've been searching for since the Seventies (when they were unavailable). In some cases, these ultimately came, as it turns out, from specialty bookstores, here in the U.S. and abroad. To my mind, this is supporting these stores.
But perhaps I am missing the point here, as I so often do. Well, thanks are certainly due for your many instances of promoting my books.
Yours,
Hal Robins (with one "b")
the book industry in particular is super complicated and there's a lot of marketing and administrative overhead that gets paid long before (and a lot more than) the authors do. in many ways amazon simply cuts out a lot of middlemen and as a publisher for people without too much money I find their prices pretty damn low as a result, meaning they probably cut the customer a big discount for their integration. therefore amazon creates new efficiencies that skew at least partially to the customers' benefit (for instance nobody else I've seen offers my book for such a low price).
amazon also generates a lot of demand for books that simply are unavailable in most parts of the country and world. but a key way it does so is because of aStores, where people like Scott can point out the gems.
however it definitely worries me about what independent bookstores can do to play ball. retail is simply at a disadvantage right now. if green apple were to set up an affiliate program, that would be keen. probably a lot of independent booksellers already sell through amazon marketplace. furthermore this marketplace has led to a lot of "booksellers" who don't have shops at all.
what we are really mourning here is the troubles of cool independent retail. having grown up in poughkeepsie during the advent of the shopping mall era, i understand full well what the creeping marshmallow does to independent commerce. amazon is only one of the issues that these retailers face.
does anyone have any idea about how "in trouble" any of the other SF bay area independent booksellers are? man i take off for seven years and everything goes straight to hell... i mean, schwarzeneggar ?! you're kidding right ?!?
If someone wants to buy the book locally after they see it on your site then more power to them for doing the right thing.
I think you could post a disclaimer stating that you are not necessarily supporting Amazon and LS readers should attempt to purchase the books at their local bookseller first.
I think it is great that you are sharing the info about these books and hope that this shared knowledge results in further readings
Le Video beats Netflix for me because they carry the weird shit that I like to watch. They also provide me instant gratification.
The only difference between a sellout and a not-sellout is the presence of a buyer. You don't have to break someone's back to be successful and I don't think putting Amazon (and LS, etc) into the same pile as Halliburton does anything to support your arguments. LS does amazing things to change the world, some subtle some direct, but all in the spirit of innovation and improving the way things are. I have no doubt Amazon would see themselves the same way.
Amazon is good.
Buy books from them, they support authors.
Don't consider other "local" online resources for the same books such as www.powells.com.
sheesh.......
So here we go , the vote race is on. what a fascinating microcosm of the red white and blue darwinian swamp we call ... United Homeland Estates!
This is really informative, so before i analyse the messy picture, we should really thank you Scott and all at LS for providing this keyhole view on the culture. and thank you for this space to think aloud. we truly appreciate all yur ongoing pioneering efforts ( ... but some of us are a little worried ).
Ok here we go with a little myth deconstruction:
democracy Might work in a highly educated society where there was some kind of consciousness similar to a seven generations concept, but put it into the hands of a Fast Food Nation and its like expecting jackals to come up with a sustainabilty plan at the breakfast table.
so while it is commendable that LS has set up a voting system here, really it would be far better to take all the great suggestions coming thru ... and then DO The RigHt ThIng ! Because otherwise in these scenarios democracy will likely just become a nice hand-washing soap and a slippery move to the next issues of "progress".
so lets back up. we're not talking late stages of "the disease" like halliburton... a misfired analogy and we can all pretty much agree that was going too far. We are talking about , well for starters, Jeff Bezos, a princeton graduate geek groomed well for playing winner-take- all-business , who ran a company at a PLANNED loss for several years to the nasty detriment of the larger ecology of the publishing biz, indie biz and mom and pops. ( btw i got no biz degrees, but assuming "loss" here means a lot of employee suffering while a few execs have expanding bank accounts or are at least artificially pumped )
So now Jeff sits on top of his 10.6 billion dollar netting company (2006) and who occassionally makes clueless humanitarian gestures like raising money for an inept and politically manipulated Red Cross in times of severe humanitarian crises like the tsunami and katrina
( but not before ).
Voted man of the year by Time in 1999, we can safely say he is one of those fuzzy warm creative creatures ( hmm cool , maybe he even goes to burning man ??? ) who more than survived the dot-com bubble, he is now King...of the dung heap.
can't ya just feel it in the air?? oh happy day, more dot com bubbles, bubbles 2 and 3.0 are floating as we speak. one friend will win and a thousand others will be washed down the river.
btw anyone here have a few missing exodized friends, eviction experiences, art space tombstones, debt, a favorite cafe or local bizness, and/or diversity neighborhoods vaporized ??! from that first rosy bubble era ? ah the nostalgia.
To conlcude, cause who the fuk has time to read all this in the churning wheel of the commodity/machine culture, i'll quote Rev. Billy, "We ( the subculture) gotta crack the dream."
and..."What Would Jesus Buy?"
You're not forcing anyone to spend money at amazon, those that do though may choose to spend it through your links and let you have 5% commission!
So Where's The Fire?
Try www.powells.com for instance.
Hell, I have some credit now... I'm gonna buy me a book!
Thanks Scott, for all you do and the thoughtful manner in which you do it.
(I'll order my REsearch books direct from V.)
I also enjoy a Trossen Robotics affiliate program, because *it* brings in spare change to my stupid little website. It is also a "Local" company, only, it's local in Chicago and not San Francisco, where I am.
I also use Text Link Ads, which is a local company, because *it* brings in spare change to my stupid little website.
Amazon may have its faults, like many many big companies, however I will second Eddie Codel when he said Amazon is not killing brown kids overseas. Amazon, in fact, writes big fat checks to places like the San Francisco (LOCAL! golly) based Long Now Foundation, which is working to promote slower/better thinking in the form of language archives, internship programs, public seminars, essays, a blog,
and a very nice space in Fort Mason Center. We're right next to a world-famous sustainable vegetarian restaurant and a ton of other place that are LOCAL and benefit from having Long Now in proximity.
I bet you bought your shirt from a chain department store, and I bet you eat chocolate and drink coffee, neither of which are local products in and of themselves.
Each according to their own choice my friend. If I were faced with not making rent or not being able to buy groceries and getting some spare cash from Amazon, I'd take the cash too. People on WIC don't care if they can't buy organic, they just want to feed their kids.
Anyway sermon over. Thanks for all you do, Scott, and thanks for the discussion.
Ask these bookstore owners if they feel the same way:
http://www.nciba.com/
Hal or Violet, what about the their rent or their worker's rent?
Bleu's comment: "while there are local spots in the city where I might be able to buy these books, there isn’t anywhere in my immediate neighborhood." is the crux of the problem...our society has become so focused on the quick fix (the internet being the quickest). Honestly, do we buy books daily like coffee? No. Seems like the huge trek out of your Chicago neighborhood would be every so often. With the advent of internet, Starbucks on every corner, etc.. it's getting tougher for local indie business to stay afloat. Especially when corporations offer big incentives that the locals are unable to.
Here's info on an interesting alliance, BALLE:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Alliance_...
I wonder what their thoughts are on this? (I'm not a member and have no affiliation)
Would they support Amazon kicking back 10% over trekking a mile or 2 to the local bookstore?
http://sfloma.org/whylocal
A good summary
I haven't felt the need to research all the local websites for you. Maybe you should take a few moments to research them for yourself if you genuinely care.
Everyone else needs to realize I'm not trying to demonize amazon. I agree the comparison to halliburton was way over the top, not sure who made that point. What I hope folks gather from this is the fact that we need to spend more of our money locally when possible. No, chocolate is not local Simone (I personally don't eat the stuff), but when purchasing chocoalate everyone has the decision of what chocolate to purchase and from where. Free trade, organic chocolate makes a difference in local communities, rather than buying Nestle.
Companies like amazon have caused the closure of many a local business. Amazon makes these shiny little links and brings forth reasons why they are good. Scott has built up what seems to be a solid reputation in these parts and when he brings ideas like this up, people trust him. I hope the vote that I see above (currently 50-10 in favor of amazon links on ls) is not the only factor Scott uses to make his decision as I think many of the yes votes must have been more to back Scott than they were yes votes in support of this amazon store link.
Scott, please look into an amazon alternative. There are other choices out there that can bring in revenue if necessay. It is a multitude of decisions like this one that add up to keep local stores like Green Apple viable or closed.
Trust me, all of these so called "local" independent bookstores clear far, far, more cash than Scott does on his blog.
I find it offensive that naysayers would pop out of the woodwork to try to malign Scott over his online store. Personally I think it's a damn good idea. And I think it's a great resource for Scott to help give even more support to the artists that he supports and recommends. I like this idea so much that I might even build a store myself after reading this.
Amazon offers an easy central place with an amazing breadth of product to build a store like this. If independent bookstores want to get together and build something like this themselves then more power to them and I'm sure Scott would consider it if it was comparable to Amazon. But just because Amazon is "online" and not a local bookstore doesn't make them evil.
I support local artists whenever I can. I bought Troy Paiva's excellent book "Lost America" at his photo opening last Friday night in Alameda. I like buying things directly from artists when I know the money is going directly into their pocket. But you know what? When I blogged about his show I put a link in there to his book on Amazon.com (just like he does on his website) because it's an easy way for more people to discover his work, buy his book, and support him in the end. If I didn't link to Amazon many people might be too lazy to get down and try to search for it at 10 local bookstores none of which probably carry it.
Ain't nothing wrong with what Scott's doing here.
Power to the people, power to the artists, and keep on doing that thing you do Scott Beale.
Thomas Hawk
Why do u use aStore ? Wny is easy to setulp and highly configurable?
1st off , respex, clearly u are one of the hardest working webbers in the info/showbiz...Thanks for taking the xtra steps towards supporting independent authors, bookstores , distributors, publishers, etc.... I hope that direction will remain a central concern for LS community and those local links might be presented and utilized as a first option ...and Obligation to diversity.
I haven't jumped into a blog thread here before, but this one really triggered some deep concerns which honestly have been building up regarding what appears to be a substantial drift from the underground to more and more popular (and highly problematic ) culture.
This debate here represents something even more disturbing than what i suspected. It is not your coverage of the arts that has changed as much as an artist community as a whole that is apparently losing its WILL to operate outside the norm... to operate on its own territory...to defy these intolerable system grids wherever possible... to demand the iMpossible , to speak up for the impossible, to enlarge the hunger for impossibles to the point that it obscures the narrow and demeaning supermarket aisles that have been layed out before us by clerks and thieves and colonial empire pricks.
In the end it is not offensive that LS uses a tool which supports the authors in these circles... but that "counterculture" authors themselves are not only ready to belly up to the Man without even a squirm or a wince, amazingly they do not even seem to have any recognition of their virtual nemesis pimp - Amazon.com, who pioneered e-commerce in the shape of some odd new virtual Reagan/Bushonomic pustules and wet dreams that either ensures a deforestation of local/indie community-driven economies or leeches off them with their little idiotic click-on shopping carts.
And still worse i've just noticed that one of THE major hubs of supposedly subculture artists in n. america has been reduced to debating issues regarding the finer (and gruesome) details of CONVENIENT ONLINE SHOPPING...
this is the effect of Amazon.com ...
Get me the fuck outta here before Jeff Bezos's wall street e-zombie ass starts gnawing at my flesh!
with love... and wake the fuk up yall !
pod p.
One argument for buying local that nobody's made yet here is that locally produced goods have a lower carbon impact. It would be great if we could find ways to make our economy more local, as this would lower carbon emissions. I'm in favor of that.
But I'm a realist too. It would also be great if http://sfloma.org/ had an affiliate program so that people who send business to local merchants, like Scott, could get a commission for that. All the bellyaching about why we *should* buy locally will go nowhere if there's not a strong incentive for people to do it.
This fractious and even Jacobin discussion has I think unfairly maligned Scott and his business for offering convenient one-stop shopping using a consolidator (Amazon) as middleman.
Conscientious and principled shoppers can still order direct, and may be provided links with which to do so. Purists retort that any traffic through Amazon is at the expense of local business...and that certainly is true.
BUYERS BEWARE for your consumer choices do have consequences. How many shoppers are able to face, unflinching, the Naked Lunch that is at the end of their money-fork? Too few! Is it LS's job to compel them to make the "right" choice? Obviously that is in part what this debate is about.
If sales that otherwise would not occur are effected via the Amzaon virtual storefront, then I don't see why Scott should be faulted for offering it. If a better mousetrap is built by someone who is demonstrably more in or of this community, then I trust they will get fair consideration for their service.
As a meme-scholar, this exchange has enlightened me on one point: Halliburton has become the new Hitler variant in Godwin's Law. (Anyone care to update the entry in Wikipedia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law )
I also think you are probably correct that local bookstores clear more money than Scott does on his amazon store. Was that in question here? If they didn't, they likely would be closed. Trust me on this one, if more of us drive business to the local bookstores instead of amazon, we can hold onto the few we have left even longer!
Re Simone...would love to hear from Stewart Brand on this.
I agree with everything D.S. Black said, only in a slightly less elegant format. As Mr. Black has invoked Godwin's Law I hereby declare myself out of this discussion.
PPPPPPPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
Chad, and what is Powell's doing in return for people like Scott and I and others who choose to promote artists online? Are they paying Scott a referral fee? Are they paying me a referral fee? Are they in any way supporting the online efforts that might suggest them as an option? Is it that local small blogs and websites are not important enough for them or is it that they'd prefer to keep all of the profit themselves.
And what about things that are not sold at Powells? Is it up to the blogger to try to create a hodgepodge of places to build a store that won't pay him referral fees?
I have no problem with Powells, but if they want to build the infrastructure for an online store with referral fees then I'm sure they'd be considered.
Trust me on this one, if more of us drive business to the local bookstores instead of amazon, we can hold onto the few we have left even longer!
And if the local bookstore can build a competitive referral program for people like Scott and other small community bloggers then we can also hold onto the few samll internet site operators we have even longer. But to expect Scott to refer this traffic and that there is no responsibility for the small independent stores to in turn support his operation is not right.
Amazon built a product that works, that pays a fair referral fee, that is comprehensive and complete and offers the small blogger or site a way to help sustain their long term viability. When something else is more compelling let me know.
Personally, my two favorite types of stores are good tobacconists (with walk in humidors) and used bookstores. I patronize both as often as possible. Like most people in today's fast moving world, my leisure time for such luxuries as perusing rare books is limited. If I need a book, sometimes going on Amazon is the only way to find it. I love Powell's too and know it well. I have an old friend (a ruthless prankster, no less) who has toiled away in the labyrinthine stacks there for decades. If their book ordering program is as comprehensive, as convenient and as economical as Amazon's then perhaps using it would be an option.
On another note, comparing Amazon to Halliburton is another silly blow to civillity that online communication seems to encourage. They are part of an inexorable lunge into an unseen future that we can't know til we're in it. They're not Nazis and with the prices they often provide to book buyers, they must be a godsend to some low-income, remotely located readers.
Times change. For me, the loss of the nearly twenty-five reperatory movie houses that adorned Market St., Mission St, and Frisco's varied neighborhoods in the 70's and 80's was a deeply sad blow. I almost lived in some of those magical dark rooms: the Richelieu Theater on Geary played only B&W Noir films, The York on 24th St.- triple bills of Hitchcock, Polanski and others, The El Rey on Ocean - now a giant evangelical church & my favorite: The Embassy on Market, next door to the equally wonderful Strand Theater. The Embassy opened at ten in the morning and for $1 you could stay til past midnight. Many people did. You were handed 4 lottery type tickets along with your entrance ticket -these you hung onto til later. Their programming was the best. It was by title and assumed genre. That or it was completely random. A typical bill would be "Snake Fist Fighter" (early Jackie Chan) with "Bring me the Head of Alfredo Garcia" and "Love Story!" I would sit in the balcony smoking cigars and watching the amazing bills along with a big contingent of the cities unseen shopping cart populace. At 8PM they'd bring out the big wheel onstage and spin it, a few lucky wino's would win $2-20 or so bucks. I won $4 dollars once. It was fabulous.
My point? All those wonderful places are gone due to changes in technology. It's a shame, but inevitable.
Some independent bookstores (mostly in large metropolitan areas & college towns) will survive with the support of those who of us who need them. The overhead for operating such a business is considerably less than running a decrepit old theater with reperatory fare. I love these places: Borderland's on Valencia is my favorite; Green Apple, Dog Eared, Black Oak, the remaining Cody's, Shakespeare, etc. Patronize them all. In the mean time, if promoting books by Hal Robins, Charles Gatewood, Re/Search etc, on Amazon exposes these writers and publishers to worlds of new readers, them it can't be entirely a bad thing.
Second, Amazon is certainly convenient, but so are the online presences of independents like Books Inc., Kepler's, Book Passage, The Boosmith...the list goes on. All of these stores offer online ordering and shipping to eitheer your home or office, or to the bookstore for pick-up. And guess what? Everyone uses the same publishers and distributors to order books from, so we get the books from the same places that Amazon does. You don't think Amazon has a big warehouse with every book in print, do you?
And while some authors may like Amazon's service, I can promise you that many others are not happy about Amazon's policy of offering used copies of their titles right next to the new copies. The used copy may make more money for Amazon, but it also cheat sthe author out a royalty, since royalties aren't paid on used books. Amazon also is known for trying to wrangle better discounts out of small publishers by threatening not to list their titles if they don't get a better deal than anyone else. Hey, that's capitalism, right? Actually, not right -- there are laws that say companies can't sell products at significantly different discounts to one supplier over another. So Amazon is soliciting deals that are probably illegal.They also purposely avoid collecting sales tax in California (also illegal, but that's another subject). That's a great deal for all you shoppers -- almost a 10% savings right off that bat. It has also cost the state literally hundreds of millions of dollars in lost revenue, so keep that $5 "savings" in mind when you pay more for city services, parking meters, public transportations, and the like.
With all that said, I'm not advocating you give up Amazon or chain store shopping. They serve a purpose and sometimes fill a need. What I am asking folks to consider is the local alternative as well, and hopefully first. As far as going into business with Amazon with your own store, you need to decide what's best for you. At least you now have some more information.
Amazon is not the only game in town. If you want to support locally owned independent bookstores, and you want the convenience of online ordering, and you want to save shipping charges by picking the book up at a real store, there are many options, In this day and age, successful independents (and there are plenty) are adapting to change and to customer desires on a regular basis. Plus, they reinvest in their communities in ways that chains and online retailers don't.
Amazon may still be the first choice of many, but please don't leave people with the mistaken impression that it is basically the only choice.
This whole thing is getting really old.
scott as u know i've tried to post more information in this thread re: amazon and the related corporate consolidation/partnerships dilemmas in general... i still don't know why it's not posting and will have to come back to this conversation cause b/c i am too busy preparing a show for tonight at New College about VIRTUAL MIGRATIONs ... u can read about it on my site linked above.
there's really some serious information you and the LS community should know and continue debating not just about amazon, but the environments thru which technology (via these type of companies) are shaping (or mangling?) our culture.
best,pod
ps. maybe its the links that are obstructing my posts so i will just add , if u search for :
princeton university campus greens amazon
you will begin to understand the underbelly.
People are being duped into using Amazon and you realize it or not, you are aiding in thos Scott.
It's really too bad that soooooo many people are just voting on the side they think you would like them to be on, rather than truly understanding the issue on hand.
Very disappointing. The poll results show how easy it is to dupe the American public, even those that 'think' they are in the know.
http://blog.dantup.me.uk/2007/08/blogging-creat...